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Post by getro@Valencia on Sept 8, 2021 16:22:54 GMT
Hi guys, I would like to give another option for this young op players. Take in mind I'm new to this type of games, so my ideas could be total bullshits What about giving managers of these players 2 possibility? 1) The manager can decide to agree the deduction of the skill by some amount (that i cant figure it out due to my inexperience) 2) The manager can decide to disagree the deduction of the skill and in this case will be added to the player some extra years old (that i cant figure it out due to my inexperience) So people could keep their strong players, but they will not be set to dominate tha game for the next 15 seasons, but just for a minor time. In both case i cant specify what could be the right compensation for these managers, giving they paid real money, it must be something for sure Just my rambling thoughts written in a bad form
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Post by Dillon (OSA) on Sept 8, 2021 20:02:56 GMT
it might be an idea to still allow scout missions on players aged 31+ will a random factor +-3 skill either side of age meaning older players can still be bought but we know there impact on the game will be minimal due to them only potentially having a small number of seasons to play before retiring, so we could let everyone have there normal 3 scouts on 17-21 and 31+ age group only and clubs with 4-7 scouts more must use these on 17-21 age group? at least then we can still have the option of recruiting first team players ie keeper Surely that's the whole point we're trying to avoid though? Those players under the scouting conditions right now are running at 100-150m and are rarely bought. I'd imagine that price is dropped if we change it to this, and then impact on the game is still massive though mainly because players are skipping vital development sacrifices. You'd be talking about letting 31 34s into the game which is likely beyond what some 17 20s will make it to in the end without donations being +10. Players like Strok etc might hit 31 34 if they're lucky but that's been through many season of sacrifice and development. Keepers may have to be looked at separately from outfield players due to the drastic differences in their development and skill caps at reserve level. The only types of players I can see having a minimal impact would be allowing the likes of 33 year old 27/28s who at best will only ever be rotation and squad filler whilst allowing smaller teams a chance to up their average skill at a cost/short term benefit
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Post by Andy @ schalke on Sept 8, 2021 20:25:17 GMT
I'd agree with that. That's basically what i proposed before too. Still need the option to buy first team level players. But not top tier. If the intent is to bring the money back into the leagues.
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Post by Dillon (OSA) on Sept 8, 2021 20:34:58 GMT
Far too many managers just thinking about where these rule changes fit in with themselves and their club, and not about the health and longevity of the game. I have plenty of these players and have focused 100% on youth since I started in the game years ago (2015/16 so a good 5 or 6 years now!). I'd rather see the game healthy and in a spot where it's competitive instead of having 4 or 5 clubs who benefited from rules that were then edited to avoid this happening again.
Plenty people have been burnt with rule changes, even Gazza got burnt with 1st team goalkeeper scouts being introduced. He spent 70/80m loaning out a youth keeper (Rafael) for 4 or 5 seasons and suddenly you're able to scout similar players for 30-40m. Plenty youths were developed before abs changed to x15 at max academy, even before academies. As Pom says, Bojan, Strok and Odegaard were the super youths of seasons past who are now being overshadowed due to sudden changes in donations and abs. 27 year old 31.5 FWs would have been utterly ridiculous in years past but are being blown away by 19-23 year olds and their value has went down 100x. I don't see any managers (myself included) moaning about that and saying we're going to walk from the game unless we're specifically catered towards. Even Shaw and De Bruyn would be far beyond where they are now but that's the way the game grows. We need to be able to admit when we've broken the balance in the game and let it spiral away from us at an uncontrollable rate (which these monster youths have).
Even if you've spent money on your players, it has been through donations to help the game keep going. It's not being paying to win and paying for the best players. People need to step back and take a look at the effect on the game instead of rubbing their hands together since they hold numerous of the new golden eggs in the game. That's something I've tried to avoid doing, I could have easily sat back and looked to gain off of pushing for the rules to be left as it is, but I care more about the health of the game than I do about Osasuna profiting out of these rules and changes.
It's been easy to try and add to the game to keep one side up with the other but at this point it's creating more problems than it is solving. It's natural to pull some of this back and take a look at what damage it could do to the game long term to have unobtainable players who will never move clubs and never be replicated on this level again. Adding/keeping older scouts to combat this isn't going to do any good, neither is keeping the route open for further monster youths to come in. The players are anomalies and should be at least addressed in some capacity.
It's not impossible to remove or adjust players. It's just going to be hard to find a compromise, but it may be that it needs to happen for the good of the game. I imagine that's a decision only Malky can really make at the end of the day though. Money was put in, in good faith to support the game and Malky with the running costs, not for gaining huge advantages on other sides. Donations should never allow you to gain huge benefits on those who don't/can't donate.
The point about everyone being able to buy into youths is somewhat skewed as I'm not sure it's true. I'm not entirely sure Division 2 clubs could have spent the 250m required to get a level 4 academy as they'll struggle to generate that level of funds over a few seasons. If they're unfortunate enough to not be able to find a 17 20 in their scouts then they're forced to go out and spent between 30m-120m on a youth player who would've been anywhere near the players we're seeing now. At the top end you're talking about an investment of 370m to produce 1 super youth (An estimate based roughly on Osasuna getting to Lv4 and signing M_Rose from Rangers).
That's why the issue isn't one sided though, you've got clubs who realistically had no chance of competing in developing these players and have now missed the window to have one as they'll never get that chance again - which is why these players should be adjusted and brought back a bit in order to ensure that there is a level of balance at least to the point that it can be achieved again. Those clubs would've had to compete with Osasuna/Man City/Marseille/Barca who were all aggressively pursuing these 17 20s as that was our strategies, they would've had to pay over the odds to secure that future.
On the other side, there are clubs like Osasuna/Man City/Barca/Marseille who have invested huge amounts of time, in game cash and effort into creating this culture of youth production. Sacrificing numerous first team players to set up academies and secure youths. As I'd said before, 250m into just laying the ground work in an academy. 100m on a youth here and there, 20-30m on another, trading a 70m scout + 20m for a 21 year old MF, 24m on a 20 25DF. Over the years I'd imagine Osasuna have at least put 550m+ into youth production which is why many managers are begrudgingly holding onto the players that are the centre of discussions now as they're finally starting to pay off, but are becoming a huge issue in the overall scope of the game. That's why there needs to be some compromise, as a manager who has a lot to lose from changing these players, I can see where the game is heading if we blindly ignore them because people have worked hard on them and sacrificed to get to where we are.
Whatever that compromise is, it will likely be one of the hardest conversations that the game has seen for a long time but personally I think it's 100% needed if we see this game as a long term thing. It would be very sour to let 32 seasons of pride and history and many years in this game fall to bits without at least trying to preserve and maintain it in a healthy state.
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Post by Dillon (OSA) on Sept 8, 2021 20:56:32 GMT
Very likely to be an unpopular compromise but just removing the donations (and allowing players to keep the abs gained through higher skills) would reduce all of these players by 4 ratings - for example leaving Anderson with me at about 20 27.8 next season - and then compensate the clubs with the cash equivalent of the abs. That'd be 10m per 1000 abs. So for every super youth clubs would essentially get 40m back but that would require us going back to check who donated on who and when most likely.
I don't think that's the best choice for sorting it but it's at least an example and addresses the point about people spending money on these players as they'd get back their exact money equivalent on their donations just on a different choice.
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Post by pezza @ Marseille on Sept 8, 2021 21:07:34 GMT
You cannot take skills off players that have been played in the first team for season on season, or loaned out at huge costs just as they start to get to the point where they will benefit the teams that have gone down this route.
Introducing a skill cap is the only fair way to do this, it really is that simple.
You would basically ruin years of planning that has gone in to these players and the long term effects of the team they play for, everybody had the opportunity to do this, some chose not too and they've already got the trophies in the bag, if you take skills away from players you ruin these teams and then keep the same teams at the top who sacrificed nothing.
It most certainly isn't in the games best interest to undo the hard work managers have put in over the years and these 30 or so players are not going to ruin the game, if you want to stop anymore of these players coming through then its a shame but nobody loses anything, if you want to add a skill cap then it has some minor affects but does the job you want to do and stops these players ending up way higher than anybody else has previously.
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Post by pom on Sept 9, 2021 2:16:07 GMT
As has been pointed out by a few people, its impossible to remove or remove skills from these players that people have put real money and alot of time into, the solution to these has already been suggested, a skill cap to make sure they dont ever get out of hand. A rule change has been bought in to stop these players been created again, personally i dont agree with the 10 skill limit being removed but it does solve the issue of future players so it does a job i guess. Scout changes being bought in to help reignite the transfer market - again i can see this will do the job but i would like a more measured approach, like 3 scouts for seniors and then any additional being youth only - but again i can accept whatever is bought in as it is an equal playing field for all. Every team on the game has the option to develop youth players over the last 5 to 6 seasons, you cant punish the few who decided to do just that. It doesn't come off very well when the person suggesting it is at the top of the league, with none of these players, that could see his team overtaken - stinks of self preservation for not taking the time to develop these players and just enjoying the short term success of older players. I'm sure Pom will deny it and say its just in the best interests of the game, but i'd suggest its in the best interests of his team more than any other in the game to try to penalise those teams who have superstars growing that will overtake his players over the next few seasons. Yeah Pezza - Im just saying all this to benefit Santos FFS !! Who has said taking these superstars out of the game (not me) What point am i missing Pezza ? Who am i trying to penalise ? I am just looking for a fair way to progress instead of the extreme measures so far suggested (only youth scouts / next season) Mbappe & Thanatos will already be the top 2 FWDS next season - so they have already overtaken (what point are you trying to make) Never had a problem with the Superstars apart from the skill cap = but this goes hand in hand with being able to scout good players to even it out No one is looking at the longer term of keeping the good scouts Most clubs a few seasons ago had massive bank balances and these have dwindled over the last few seasons - mainly due to clubs getting the expensive scouts and creating the superstars - but if you look at it over the next few seasons there won't be that many clubs who will be able to afford the top scouts and therefore there will be only a handful of top scouts coming in each season - and clubs will be dealing with each other a lot more Only Real Madrid & Benfica have over 100m now - and the rest have half that at best - some of this is because of the good scouts - but if you can't afford a good scout then you have to deal with other clubs - this I reckon would of become more prevalent next season anyway and more money will stay in the game The world has changed / gone mad again - cuz I'm actually on the same page as Dillon on most things in this thread
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Post by Malky(Admin) on Sept 9, 2021 9:28:33 GMT
i know the main talking point is those players already in the game that look to be going out of control, from that list i posted its clear to see its the forward department that has double or treble the amount of players than the other positions, that's cause they generate the most abs, you just have to read the history books to see forwards shots/goals vrs midfielders key passes/assists and lastly defenders key tackles
now the abs awarded have to be set up correctly to balance out each position so they all advance fairly at a similar pace, we have also seem IMO and what has been mentioned before keepers and forwards possess the most influence to scores
we have to look at what we are rewarding players for, that's why for this reason im sure it was last season i removed any abs awarded for forwards missing the target, ie shots off, i thought why are we giving forwards 5 abs for a shot off target? surly they should only get abs for shots ON and goals scored
midfielders get 10abs for a key pass and a bonus of 20abs for an assist, again if a midfielder has 7 key passes and 1 assist that's 90abs in one game, 10 games and he's potentially gaining a skill increase, this is why i mentioned adding bigger leagues, adding group stages for both league cup and FA Cup have doubled the amount of games we used to play in the beginning, so i have created players increasing faster, maybe what i should have done was reduced the abs awarded as we increased the amount of games played per season
we can't compare season 1 squads to season 32, too many changes have taken place, but abs awarded have in the whole stayed the same, i'd have to work out a scoring system that meant a forward ending the season shooting 115 times scoring 20 goals was progressing at the same rate as a midfielder passing 85 times with 10 assists, and a defender having 60 key tackles
getting that right is hard
again im getting away from those players we have an issue with but going forward im trying to create it not continuing, so again im going to chuck in another couple of suggestions
1. Scouts - Level 0 Any age range you want Level 1 - 3 scouts any age you want - your extra scout 17-21 no fee paid Level 2 - 3 scouts any age you want - your extra 2 scouts 17-21 no fee paid Level 3 - 3 scouts any age you want - your extra 3 scouts 17-21 no fee paid Level 4 - 3 scouts any age you want - your extra 4 scouts 17-21 no fee paid
you will also get the following
Level 0 - No Abs Level 1 - 1000 abs (can only be awarded to youth players 17-21 on there 2nd and 3rd skills max 1000 on any one player Level 2 - 2000 abs (can only be awarded to youth players 17-21 on there 2nd and 3rd skills max 1000 on any one player Level 3 - 3000 abs (can only be awarded to youth players 17-21 on there 2nd and 3rd skills max 1000 on any one player Level 4 - 4000 abs (can only be awarded to youth players 17-21 on there 2nd and 3rd skills max 1000 on any one player
this way a manager can shape there youth players during those bonus seasons to potentially be a DM or AM
i will have a total revamp of the scout system again, removing high first team players and high values, i will also reduce the high 2nd and 3rd skills i introduced and return to a lower level that managers can work on themselves using the above academy bonuses
again returning to the previous age to skill gap of +3 for our best scouted youths ie 17 year old skill 20 would be the best random draw
by introducing the NO fee for any scouted 17-21 year old after a Level 0 academy it uses the academy as its meant to be used, you have paid millions to build this academy why should you then have to pay to bring in youth talent, so you are getting something back ie Level 4 = 4 free 17-21 year olds plus 4000abs to use on 2nd and 3rd skills
So by giving you this what i have to take away is the 5,9,11,13 and 15 end of season bonus, again due to the amount of extra games these further bonuses are contributing to faster skill increases each season so we will return to the original x 5 for every club
hopefully hear some positive feedback on the above
i did have another think about skill caps at work last night, i keep going back to the following, again open to all this good discussion
1. Keepers remain skill capped at 39 2. Defenders no cap, progress as they are 3. Midfielders no cap, progress as they are 4. Forwards capped between 40-42
i keep looking back at the Barcelona squad of season 19 when R_v_Nistelroy was a skill 41 , 147 shots at goal and 17 goals , he played along side Pele a skill 32 who had 174 shots at goal and 21 goals, yes we still had the 39 keepers but Barcelona's defence was 25,26,26,27 and 28 when they won the league, now we are seeing much better defences
i don't think once some of those youth we have listed max out they would't be subject to transfer offers, would you not be open to an offer including two 40+ midfielders and a 38 forward + cash?
big offers will still come your way, whether you decide to sell or not is up to you
there is always going to be a massive gap between the Elite League and Division Two, Elite Clubs are always going to play around 5-10 games more a season due to lesser clubs exiting cups in the earlier rounds = less abs per season = slower player skill increases
they are always going to have to seek loan deals for extra finances, always going to have to try harder to find a star youth and sell for big money, its always been the have's and the have nots some people like it that way, a mid table finish and a good cup run
clubs in division two have been shaped over 32 seasons the same as the top clubs, we can't remove or add skills or take away or add ages to players, we have what we have, we can only shape the games future and use caps to set limits for 'problem' positions
that's me for now
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Post by pom on Sept 9, 2021 10:06:11 GMT
One thing which you haven't taken into account regarding Barcelona with all the star players in season 19
6 defenders were allowed and a lot of teams played D 6-3-1 against Barca - so the stats were swayed enormously
Obviously you forgot the bad old days of Elite !!!
"i will have a total revamp of the scout system again, removing high first team players and high values, i will also reduce the high 2nd and 3rd skills i introduced and return to a lower level that managers can work on themselves using the above academy bonus"
But your keeping the superstars and even letting them get to 42 Rated !!!
(So where's the balance against the superstars - some clubs countered the superstars by short term high raters)
Just very initial thoughts from Malky's statement..
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Post by Malky(Admin) on Sept 9, 2021 10:26:25 GMT
One thing which you haven't taken into account regarding Barcelona with all the star players in season 19 6 defenders were allowed and a lot of teams played D 6-3-1 against Barca - so the stats were swayed enormously Obviously you forgot the bad old days of Elite !!! "i will have a total revamp of the scout system again, removing high first team players and high values, i will also reduce the high 2nd and 3rd skills i introduced and return to a lower level that managers can work on themselves using the above academy bonus" But your keeping the superstars and even letting them get to 42 Rated !!! (So where's the balance against the superstars - some clubs countered the superstars by short term high raters) Just very initial thoughts from Malky's statement.. Forwards contain the main large group of fast progressing players, reducing them would be a farce, compensation would never be agreed or worked out fairly , we have to think of every club, take mine for example, No superstars and no team full of high skilled older players, my only option is to start again and fall down the leagues or continue to try and purchase older skilled players from other clubs, every club will be effected in a different way, those with these players can't be punished just because they have them and we don't, people talk about a youth player having 10-15 seasons in him that's like 8 real years, im sorry but I'll be hopefully lying on a beach by then, so maybe someone can decide soon if they have the time and commitment to take this on once i call it a day
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Post by pom on Sept 9, 2021 10:33:49 GMT
I know for a fact when I was going to start producing my superstars - right after my golden generation of stars on the old rules (have never been against the superstars I just chose to delay mine)
And that was SANTOS long term plan (which was probably 2/3 seasons away) - but even that option is gone now
Lots of us really do have long term plans - but the rules keep changing
(It's like 90% of the superstars belong to clubs who were never challenging the top spots - yet they say they have sacrificed (this & that)
Yet they have sacrificed jack (s h i t) cuz they decided to drop divisions or new managers come in and actually do a great job of building a club up
(but sacrifices .........)
( B O LL O X )
It took me really 20 odd seasons to even challenge Munchen & Real - every season just edging that little bit closer...
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Post by pom on Sept 9, 2021 10:39:34 GMT
One thing which you haven't taken into account regarding Barcelona with all the star players in season 19 6 defenders were allowed and a lot of teams played D 6-3-1 against Barca - so the stats were swayed enormously Obviously you forgot the bad old days of Elite !!! "i will have a total revamp of the scout system again, removing high first team players and high values, i will also reduce the high 2nd and 3rd skills i introduced and return to a lower level that managers can work on themselves using the above academy bonus" But your keeping the superstars and even letting them get to 42 Rated !!! (So where's the balance against the superstars - some clubs countered the superstars by short term high raters) Just very initial thoughts from Malky's statement.. Forwards contain the main large group of fast progressing players, reducing them would be a farce, compensation would never be agreed or worked out fairly , we have to think of every club, take mine for example, No superstars and no team full of high skilled older players, my only option is to start again and fall down the leagues or continue to try and purchase older skilled players from other clubs, every club will be effected in a different way, those with these players can't be punished just because they have them and we don't, people talk about a youth player having 10-15 seasons in him that's like 8 real years, im sorry but I'll be hopefully lying on a beach by then, so maybe someone can decide soon if they have the time and commitment to take this on once i call it a day Who said anything about reducing them - (might of initially) but Malky your not addressing the issue - that we all played to the rules and your solution only benefits clubs who decided to take the youth option early !!!
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Post by Malky(Admin) on Sept 9, 2021 10:42:57 GMT
All I can see is a lengthy pre season cause this will never get resolved, should we not just end on a high 🙄
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Post by Malky(Admin) on Sept 9, 2021 10:46:29 GMT
People talk about commitment and how much the game means to them and all they have put into it, how many people congratulated Matias and James on there Cup wins? was very poor IMO
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Post by pom on Sept 9, 2021 10:49:36 GMT
All I can see is a lengthy pre season cause this will never get resolved, should we not just end on a high 🙄 There we go - you ask for opinions to sort it - then don't like the answers given as usual - what did you expect !!! Just do what you gotta do (you run a great game and have made good & bad decisions - you wanted help to rectify the bad decisions cuz they outweigh the good ones atm) I've tried to help !!!
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